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Subject Sender Date
[python-181] Python vs. F # - Hey guys, I'm relatively new to Python and more in the research and consideration phase. I've got a bit more experience with F# and a lot of experience with VB.Net, C#.Net then a bit of C++ and CUDA. I'm surrounded by Microsoft developers, but Jordan Dec 18, 2009 7:36 PM
Re: [python-181] Looking for local Python training courses - PK Shiu wrote: > Jesses' list is great. I also like: > > http://diveintopython.org/ Somehow I missed the original message, but another list for remote stuff is up at: http://bcfg2.org/wiki/LearningPython of which the MIT OpenCourseWare link is p Daniel Clark Dec 18, 2009 4:26 PM
Re: [python-181] Looking for local Python training courses - Jesses' list is great. I also like: http://diveintopython.org/ P.K. PK Shiu Dec 18, 2009 4:19 PM
No December Python meetup - Pythonistas: Due to a number of factors, there will be no December Python meetup. Use the time to do something great, and I'll see you in January! --Ned. Ned Batchelder Dec 8, 2009 5:42 AM
Re: [python-181] Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - For me a great topic would be the subject of database refactoring. For example, I've been using sqlalchemy-migrate on a non-django environment. However, managing the schemas is just one aspect, but what about deployment mechanisms, code synchronization, e Elias Torres Dec 3, 2009 2:52 PM
Re: [python-181] Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - On Dec 16th, there is a meeting on the Chromium / Chrome OS code at MIT. That certainly relates to "the cloud". Python also is part of the story - since Python is available from the Chromium OS terminal and it potentially plays an important role Brian Dec 1, 2009 8:56 AM
Re: [python-181] Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - On Dec 1, 2009, at 12:04 AM, Nate Aune wrote: > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Steve Steiner wrote: >> >> I could talk a bit about using Cloud Servers and cloud computing in general as it relates to Python. >> >> I'm ju Steve Steiner Dec 1, 2009 8:02 AM
Re: [python-181] Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Steve Steiner wrote: > > I could talk a bit about using Cloud Servers and cloud computing in general as it relates to Python. > > I'm just wrapping up the contract for the Rackspace Cloud Servers Nate Aune Dec 1, 2009 12:03 AM
Re: [python-181] Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote: > Does anyone out there want to talk to the group about anything? Even a short topic? > --Ned. I could talk a bit about using Cloud Servers and cloud computing in general as it relates to Pyth Steve Steiner Nov 30, 2009 11:29 PM
Re: [python-181] Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - is the next meeting on 12/16? if i'm going to be in town, i could talk about Deliverance, a Python-based middleware tool to make it easier to theme websites and web applications. Nate On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Ned Batchelder Nate Aune Nov 30, 2009 11:01 PM
Ideas for a December Python meetup topic? - Does anyone out there want to talk to the group about anything? Even a short topic? --Ned. Ned Batchelder Nov 30, 2009 10:50 PM
December talk? - Someone talked to me after the testing meetup to suggest a December topic involving pygame, but I made the mistake of not getting a name or email address! If it was you, please send me an email: [address removed] --Ned. Ned Batchelder Nov 23, 2009 4:24 PM
Tay's slides from his Testing in Python talk - Tay sez: For those who would like to review the slides, they can be found at: http://docs.google.com/a/google.com/present/view?id=drbc6bg_3cd64rjhf --Ned. Ned Batchelder Nov 22, 2009 5:47 AM
November Python meetup: Testing In Python *NEW LOCATION* - If you are considering attending this meetup, please RSVP. Microsoft has asked for an attendee list, and I wouldn't w Ned Batchelder Nov 15, 2009 9:56 PM
Re: [python-181] Last call for Music Hack Day Boston - Nov 21-22 - Preview not available Ches Martin Nov 15, 2009 11:42 AM
Re: [python-181] Last call for Music Hack Day Boston - Nov 21-22 - Preview not available Ches Martin Nov 15, 2009 11:41 AM
Last call for Music Hack Day Boston - Nov 21-22 - Preview not available Jon Pierce Nov 14, 2009 5:19 PM
Python job in Cambridge: CIDC - Forwarding along a job posting... What Jackie Doyle wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ned, I am currently recruiting for a Python Developer position at CIDC in Cambridge, MA. It seems as if your group is Ned Batchelder Nov 8, 2009 10:21 AM
Junior-Mid Level Developer - Risa Kahn Oct 30, 2009 3:33 PM
[Fwd: [nycpython] Cool Project Alert] - Hey Boston Pythonistas: This is a note from the NYC Python group, but it mentions work going on in our own backy Ned Batchelder Oct 28, 2009 3:39 PM
Fwd: [Boston-cloud-services] Google App Engine Hackathon November 6 - this may be of interest to some folks on the Boston Python mailing list. A Google App Engine hack day on Nov. 6 See more info here: http://earlystageit.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/hackathon Nate Aune Oct 24, 2009 3:42 AM
Re: [python-181] [Fwd: Donnie Demuth has an idea for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group] - I would very much like to see a session focused around testing. What do people think about doing a roundtable discussion / workshop kind of format? Alex On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Stephan Richter Alexander Fairley Oct 20, 2009 10:11 AM
Re: [python-181] [Fwd: Donnie Demuth has an idea for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group] - On Tuesday 20 October 2009, Ned Batchelder wrote: > I'm not sure if this went to the entire list or not, and it's not a > feature I was aware of, so maybe the rest of you aren't aware of it > either. Meetup.com has an Ideas section that lets members p Stephan Richter Oct 20, 2009 8:50 AM
[Fwd: Donnie Demuth has an idea for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group] - I'm not sure if this went to the entire list or not, and it's not a feature I was aware of, so maybe the rest of you aren't Ned Batchelder Oct 20, 2009 6:44 AM
Fwd: JOB: short term python opportunity - fyi... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Brian Del Vecchio Date: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 3:23 PM Subject: JOB: short term python opportunity To: [address removed] I met Louis at a recent WebInno, and h Nate Aune Oct 19, 2009 5:10 PM
Seeking FT Python coder, Kendall Sq. - Hi all, You may remember me from various Betahouse meetups over the past year and a half as the guy working on the internet-connected pill caps. I'm pleased to say my company, Vitality, and the product, GlowCaps, have progressed to the point tha Jamie Biggar Oct 7, 2009 12:21 PM
[JOB] 3 Python Positions, New York City | 80-120k - 3 Python Positions, New York City | 80-120k POSITION #1 - Senior or Lead Python Software Engineer POSITION #2 - Python Software Engineer My client is a funded startup developing a new platform for curating real-time media, including Twitter feed Beau Gould Oct 6, 2009 4:44 PM
Re: [python-181] New Meetup: October Cambridge Python Meetup: Mobile platform with AppEngine - Preview not available Ned Batchelder Oct 4, 2009 3:00 PM
Re: [python-181] New Meetup: October Cambridge Python Meetup: Mobile platform with AppEngine - Preview not available Ches Martin Oct 2, 2009 11:52 AM
Ruby on Rails - Fast Paced and Growing Start-Up - Larry Kahn Oct 2, 2009 10:23 AM
New Meetup: October Cambridge Python Meetup: Mobile platform with AppEngine - Announcing a new Meetup for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group! What: October Cambridge Python Meetup: Mobile platform with AppEngine When: October 14, 2009 7:00 PM Where: Betahouse 13 Magazine St Cambridge, Ned Batchelder Oct 2, 2009 8:28 AM
[Fwd: Advice For A Start-Up Seeking Python Developers] - Preview not available Ned Batchelder Oct 1, 2009 7:02 AM
Ruby on Rails Ninja for Freshly Funded Startup - Cambridge, MA. $1000 referral reward - Marsh Sutherland Sep 29, 2009 3:48 PM
PyCon 2010 - Call for Papers due Thurs!!! - The Pycon 2010 is happening in Atlanta next year, and the talk proposal submissions are due on thursday, oct. 1st. read more about the conference here: http://us.pycon.org/2010/ submit your talk here: http://us.pycon.org/2010/conference/proposals/ Nate Aune Sep 27, 2009 7:44 PM
Tornado of technology swirls around Django - Tornado was recently released as open source and is a great piece of Python technology.  The code was developed at FriendFeed and the developers have long intended to release elements of that as open source. After the company Brian Sep 26, 2009 11:54 AM
Fwd: WordPress webhooks extensions - Forwarding: My name is mitcho and I'm a linguist and coder now at MIT. I'm going to be giving a talk for the WordPress meetup group at the end of the month covering plugin development basics but then also HookPress, a way to use webhooks to ext Ned Batchelder Sep 19, 2009 7:50 AM
Python job at Redhat - If anyone is looking for a job, Redhat is hiring someone to do Python at their MA office. https://redhat.ats.hrsmart.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=4444 Nate Aune Sep 13, 2009 5:55 PM
Music Hack Day - Preview not available Jon Pierce Sep 11, 2009 10:39 AM
New Meetup: September open hack night (Cambridge Python meetup) - Announcing a new Meetup for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group! What: September open hack night (Cambridge Python meetup) When: September 16, 2009 7:00 PM Where: Betahouse 13 Magazine St. #2 Cambridge, MA 02 Ned Batchelder Sep 1, 2009 7:42 AM
Re: Re: [python-181] Open Government Hack Day - Anyone interested in brain storming some about projects before this thing happens? I've been thinking a bit about doing a site that could serve as a free repository of "Better Business Bureau" type complaints about business or government Alexander Fairley Aug 25, 2009 10:48 AM
Re: Re: [python-181] Open Government Hack Day - This is really excellent data the EOT/MBTA is providing (about time too).  A couple of years ago (early 2007?), before any data was available from the T and before their mobile website came out, I wrote a screen-scr Jesse Legg Aug 25, 2009 8:47 AM
Re: [python-181] Open Government Hack Day - FYI: The MBTA recently opened up some data: http://www.eot.state.ma.us/developers/ On Aug 24, 2009, at 11:41 AM, Jon Pierce wrote: > Hey all, if you're a hacker interested in open government, I'm > organizing a Hack Day for late September. Space Wyatt Greene Aug 24, 2009 11:45 AM
Open Government Hack Day - Preview not available Jon Pierce Aug 24, 2009 11:35 AM
[Fwd: Meetup Message from Eliran Sapir: Tiverias Apps (GPush) needs a python twisted wiz] - As usual, follow up with [address removed] Ned Batchelder Aug 19, 2009 5:20 PM
Tiverias Apps (GPush) needs a python twisted wiz - Preview not available Eliran Sapir Aug 19, 2009 5:10 PM
This is the opportunity you've been waiting for... - Marsh Sutherland Aug 17, 2009 7:45 PM
[Fwd: A message from someone interested in The Cambridge Python Meetup Group] - If you are interested, follow up with Christian directly: Ned Batchelder Aug 14, 2009 8:36 PM
[Fwd: Django enquiry] - Ned Batchelder Aug 11, 2009 8:32 AM
August JavaScript Meetup - JDA: A Step Towards Large-Scale Reuse on the Web - Marsh Sutherland Aug 8, 2009 9:04 AM
Re: [python-181] help with declarative class configuration? - Thanks guys for the though so far. A bit more background: This is more of a framework thing. The Vehicle/Truck example is a little bit missleading. The base class will be providing most of the functionality, and the actual user classes/objects are PK Shiu Jul 24, 2009 3:36 PM
Re: [python-181] help with declarative class configuration? - Yeah -- it's a little unclear for this example why you would want to use something as arcane as metaclasses. Why not just use simple subclassing + overrides? Just have number_of_axles = 3 height = 13 be class variables that are defined or overr Shimon Rura Jul 24, 2009 11:46 AM
Re: [python-181] help with declarative class configuration? - PK, Perhaps you can clarify your request a bit more. Typically, if I was going to derive a new class from your base class (say Vehicle), then I would be extending your class to add some new attributes and methods that are not in your base class. John Clarke Jul 24, 2009 11:14 AM
help with declarative class configuration? - Hi Python experts, I am seeking some advice on doing the following: I am writing a utility and I want to make it OO styled. I provide a base class of say, Vehicle, and a user of the utility will need to write a derived class, say Truck using Vehic PK Shiu Jul 24, 2009 10:30 AM
Next Boston JavaScript Meetup - Interacting with the DOM in JavaScript - July 30th at 6 PM at Microsoft Research Center; Cambridge, MA - Marsh Sutherland Jul 13, 2009 11:57 AM
Hey - Preview not available Marcia Jul 13, 2009 3:01 AM
Meetup details changed: The Cambridge Python July Meetup: Remote Objects with Pyro - I've updated this Meetup. For more details, see the full listing: http://python.meetup.com/181/calendar/10676152/ When: July 15, 2009 7:00 PM Where: Betahouse 13 Ned Batchelder Jul 6, 2009 8:13 PM
Re: [python-181] A conference room in the Boston-Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? - Boston public library use policy forbids entrepreneurial use anyway. bpl.org/general/policies/Meeting%20Room%20Use%20Policy.pdf ~Nate On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, MJ wrote: > My guess is if this is a business meeting where you may be trying to impress Nate Gallaher Jul 6, 2009 4:55 PM
Re: [python-181] A conference room in the Boston-Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? - My guess is if this is a business meeting where you may be trying to impress and negotiate with a potential client, then you wouldn't want to go with the public library option. Never tried it before, but it might be worth it to contact some hotels in MJ Jul 6, 2009 4:49 PM
Re: [python-181] A conference room in the Boston-Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? - Hi Peter, We've used the Central Square Cambridge Library to host the World Plone Day meeting. It was free and only required a reservation. http://www.ci.cambridge.ma.us/CPL/pro Nate Aune Jul 6, 2009 4:42 PM
Re: [python-181] A conference room in the Boston-Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? - Preview not available Jay Luker Jul 6, 2009 3:27 PM
Re: [python-181] A conference room in the Boston-Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? - Try the Microsoft NERD facility on MemDrive near Kendall. There are a number of groups that use it all the time. Chance On 07/06/2009 03:16 PM, Peter Marquez wrote: > Community friends, > > Any one have any ideas on a free conference room in t Chuck Wegrzyn Jul 6, 2009 3:21 PM
A conference room in the Boston-Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? - Community friends, Any one have any ideas on a free conference room in the Boston, Cambridge, Somerville, or Burlington Metro area for a business meeting on Wednesday? Thanks all. Peter Marquez O: [masked] M: [masked] Peter Marquez Jul 6, 2009 3:16 PM
Re: [python-181] Python classes [Fwd: A message from someone interested in The Cambridge Python Meetup Group] - I'd highly recommend David Beazley's courses - http://www.dabeaz.com/ alas, I do not know what the cost is. On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote: > Anyone have a line on Python classes in the area? > > --Ned. Jesse Noller Jul 5, 2009 9:21 AM
[Fwd: Python classes [Fwd: A message from someone interested in The Cambridge Python Meetup Group]] - Sorry, I'd originally cc'ed the requestor, liammkelly Ned Batchelder Jul 5, 2009 9:11 AM
Python classes [Fwd: A message from someone interested in The Cambridge Python Meetup Group] - Anyone have a line on Python classes in the area? --Ned. -------- Original Message -------- Ned Batchelder Jul 5, 2009 9:08 AM
Python hacker moving to Boston area, looking for work! - Preview not available Christopher Allan Webber Jul 2, 2009 12:35 AM
Meetup details changed: The Cambridge Python July Meetup - Silly meetup.com always sends out old meeting notices. I don't have the details for the July meetup yet, but I will soon.. I've updated this Meetup. For more details, see the full listing: Ned Batchelder Jul 1, 2009 2:38 PM
Announcing new Web Executives Group on LinkedIn - Marsh Sutherland Jul 1, 2009 11:36 AM
Re: [python-181] Topic notes from last week - On Tuesday 23 June 2009 07:36:45 am Ned Batchelder wrote: > - Code Like a Pythonista: Idiomatic Python This link has a bunch of non-obvious language idioms and tricks: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/101268/hidden-features-of-python Darrell Jun 23, 2009 12:04 PM
Topic notes from last week - These are the notes I took for topics people were interested in for future meetups: - Mercurial, bazaar, git - versioning for a solo developer - Python 3.0 - Unladen swallow - Early stuff - Dictionaries - Namespaces - Reading a Ned Batchelder Jun 23, 2009 7:36 AM
New Meetup: June Cambridge Python meetup - Announcing a new Meetup for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group! What: June Cambridge Python meetup When: June 17, 2009 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Meetup Description: For June, we don't have Ned Batchelder Jun 9, 2009 1:28 PM
Re: [python-181] What would you like to see happen at the Python Meetup? - Same here. I am a noob in python. Right now I am working on a NLP in python. I just joint the group but would really encourage if some topics for beginners in python like me could be discussed.  On Thu, Jun 4, 2 Parasuraman Jun 4, 2009 12:10 PM
Re: [python-181] What would you like to see happen at the Python Meetup? - I appreciate the Python group, but I feel much of it is over my head because I am a self-taught relative beginner. Programs I have written are the sort of thing that would make a fun student project, but not anything really advanced, e.g.: A rando Erik Nelson Jun 4, 2009 12:04 PM
What would you like to see happen at the Python Meetup? - We don't have a plan for June's meeting. I'm curious to find out more about what you want. I've created a poll to collect some feedback: http://python.meetup.com/181/polls/189210/ If yo Ned Batchelder Jun 4, 2009 8:43 AM
New Meetup: The Cambridge Python May Meetup - Announcing a new Meetup for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group! What: The Cambridge Python May Meetup When: May 20, 2009 7:00 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Meetup Description: For May, Fahri Basegme Ned Batchelder May 1, 2009 5:06 PM
Meetup details changed: The Cambridge Python April Meetup - I've updated this Meetup. For more details, see the full listing: http://python.meetup.com/181/calendar/9984098/ When: April 15, 2009 7:00 PM Where: Betahouse 13 Ned Batchelder Apr 15, 2009 10:37 AM
New Meetup: The Cambridge Python March Meetup (corrected) - Announcing a new Meetup for The Cambridge Python Meetup Group! What: The Cambridge Python March Meetup When: March 18, 2009 6:30 PM Where: Click the link below to find out! Meetup Description: Pycon on the Charl Ned Batchelder Mar 4, 2009 2:25 PM
Fwd: Sony Playstation - Python Developer - Full-Time Opportunity - forwarding this on to the Python mailing list, in case anyone is interested in this opportunity... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: < Nate Aune Feb 20, 2009 9:46 PM
Re: [python-181] Text version of Whirlwind Excursion Through C Extensions - Super-great presentation, I really loved it. Didn't realize how much it would help me grok the inner workings of python...so fun! Thanks, Anna On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Ned Batchelder < Anna Callahan Feb 19, 2009 4:34 PM
Re: [python-181] Text version of Whirlwind Excursion Through C Extensions - Great talk, sorry I didn't congratulate you in person, but I am pathologically addicted to the tv show Lost.... On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote: > Thanks everyone for being supportive last night while I t Alexander Fairley Feb 19, 2009 1:00 PM
Text version of Whirlwind Excursion Through C Extensions - Thanks everyone for being supportive last night while I tried out this talk. The online version is at http://nedbatchelder.com/text/whirlext.html. It has the slides, and text for about half of them, and downloadable code. I'm still open to ques Ned Batchelder Feb 19, 2009 7:33 AM
BarCamp Boston 4 registration open - Preview not available Jon Pierce Feb 18, 2009 5:29 PM
Re: [python-181] Additional Python Training/Course Information Request - Please don't forget to include me when you get a course organized. I will certainly want to join your class. Thanks. -- Matt H. On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Kent Johnson < Zog Feb 16, 2009 10:52 AM
Re: [python-181] Additional Python Training/Course Information Request - On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, David Schott wrote: > We are looking at formal training courses for a handful of developers to get > them a fundamental understanding of Python and some basic instruction on how > to work with Kent Johnson Feb 16, 2009 10:38 AM
Additional Python Training/Course Information Request - David Schott Feb 16, 2009 10:23 AM
Free Software Foundation 2009 conference - FSF is having a conference,LibrePlanet!, in March in Cambridge. The link below has more information http://groups.fsf.org/index.php/LibrePlanet2009 Thanks Partha Mittra Feb 10, 2009 3:06 PM
Re: [python-181] February Meetup, and a bit of January Recap - ok, the meetup.com page has been updated. Lightning talks are most welcome for the 2nd half of the meetup. Please post your proposed lightning talks to the list if you want to present. thanks, Nate On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Ned Batchelder Nate Aune Feb 9, 2009 10:56 AM
Re: [python-181] February Meetup, and a bit of January Recap - Hi Ches, Thanks for the summary of the last Python meetup. It sounds like there were some good discussions. Ned - can you provide a description for your talk so that we can update the Nate Aune Feb 8, 2009 4:35 PM
February Meetup, and a bit of January Recap - Preview not available Ches Martin Feb 8, 2009 3:15 PM
Fwd: Python Developers in Entertainment & Media - Preview not available Nate Aune Jan 26, 2009 11:15 PM
python meetup group fabric presentation audio - http://www.pythonbank.com/library/python-meetup-group-fabric-audio.mp3 -- P THINK BEFORE PRINTING: is it really necessary? This e-mail and its attachments are confidential and solely for the intended addressee(s). Do not share or use them without marchon Jan 26, 2009 3:41 PM
Re: [python-181] someone mentioned a slide deck about practical uses for generators... - Thanks for that link on python generators..I feel I missed out on a good meetup. Does anyone on this group have some experience on signal processing with numpy (scipy) Hari On Thu Hari Jan 22, 2009 1:16 PM
Re: [python-181] someone mentioned a slide deck about practical uses for generators... - That was me-- sorry for the delay. Generator Tricks for Systems Programmers: http://www.dabeaz.com/generators/ On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, peter wrote: > Last night someone recommended a presentation about practical u Peter Beardsley Jan 22, 2009 12:05 PM
someone mentioned a slide deck about practical uses for generators... - Last night someone recommended a presentation about practical uses for generators. Can that someone, or anyone else, post a link here? Thanks! -peter peter Jan 22, 2009 11:39 AM
Jan Boston Plone meetup - Jan Boston Plone meetup Sid Koul Jan 21, 2009 10:59 PM
Fabric presentation from 1-21-2009 - The Fabric presentation from 1-21-2009 is now up on the fileserver at http://python.meetup.com/181/files/ Partha Partha Mittra Jan 21, 2009 8:00 PM
RE: [python-181] Python Forum for MIT Hackers - Marsh Sutherland Jan 16, 2009 4:19 PM
Re: [python-181] Python Forum for MIT Hackers - Let us please keep things civil, perhaps the first poster exercised poor judgment, no need to keep on with it. Aaron On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Alexander Fairley < Aaron VanDerlip Jan 16, 2009 4:16 PM
Re: [python-181] Python Forum for MIT Hackers - You need to be able to spell MIT in diamond studded bling on your neck like my boy "the discounted gentleman". On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:21 PM, MJ < mate Alexander Fairley Jan 16, 2009 4:13 PM
Re: [python-181] Python Forum for MIT Hackers - no, it's probably not enough to be able to spell it. this cat Hunter should not have posted to this list. it's actually a bit offiensive. oops, did I reply to all?... On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Ralph Navarro MJ Jan 16, 2009 1:21 PM